The Inarticulate Sand Man Foo Say Juan at Sentosa Cove, One Degree North Marina aboard the Boon Teik, on 2 February 2015 in conversation with Charles Lim 52 mins, verbatim transcript
…I think this must be the third time that we are talking about this. The first time was many years ago when you shared your story with me. I recorded it then, but to be honest I have lost the file. I try to recall the…the things I did uh, in the 90s, you know, where this is a time where the… there is a lot of landfill project in Singapore. Especially uh… the biggest one was the Southern Islands, where they, the… the refinery island they merge, they link together, and subsequently the Pasir Panjang container wharf project, they need a lot of uh, we call it sand, to do the work. During the time they needed a lot of sand, and our company was lucky to be the one called to look for the sand. And the main con would be the one to gather the informations. They will suck the sand into the barges to deliver to Singapore. The areas that we choose are nearby island, where like Karimun, towards the east side, which is the Selat, the Durian Island, and to the further east, where the, uh, Batam side. The furthest we go is Batam side. And those days, we… we are called to do the job, then we mobilize our equipment, then we look for the sand. And uh, the project, though it looks complicated, but actually it’s still simple technology. GPS, we use, but we have to use much more advanced equipment like DGPS. We don’t use GPS because of the differential of GPS is probably about… can be up to five to ten meters you know, for GPS. So we used differential because it’s very accuracy you know, the exact spot that we need you know. Because the project need accuracy, precise on the quality of sands, quantity of sands, you know. The uh… the each time we spend on board the ship to look for sand could sometime up to one month, and when we gather the information, we come back, we do the print out, we do the uh send the information to the main con. The… the… the project is… I look at it is… is long period, for a month, for each… each… each time that we do, then when we finish one phase, then probably they will ask us to go another phase. Maybe… they, when they find the quantity of sand is sufficient for this particular project, and uh the… the… the other project have not really started, so they will hold on for maybe a couple of weeks for us to prepare for another project. Most of the time we are doing landfill project… Pasir Panjang, and the southern islands, which is the Ayer Chawan, Pulau Sekai and the landfill projects. 
The ship that you were on, was it a survey ship? It is actually not a survey ship, it is a utility vessel. But the what we do is, important thing, is the equipment have to be stored accordingly. For example, we need an A-frame you know. A-frame is a structure which is an A-Shape to attach… We call it a drop core you know. Drop core is an instrument, stainless steel instrument which is about five meter long, and is uh… what we did is uh… which is about to eight meter. We have different lengths. We have five meter drop core, ten meter drop core. The A-frame has to able to attach the drop core. And the we call it drop core because this instruments, is actually… has a core in the middle of the shaft. And this core is actually… when we release the drop core, when it penetrate into the sand, and because of the weight of the metal and the structure… we make in the form of a long arrow. At the bottom of the tip is tapered so it can penetrate deeper into the sand. And there is a core in the middle where it drop, it penetrate probably about five meters into the sand, and as we pull up, you know, there is a locking device which is uh, yeah, (pause) there is a locking device which is a lock the core, and when we pull up, actually the core is lock, we retrieve the drop core when we retrieve the drop core into transom of the vessel, and from there we open up the core, and we have uh four meters or five meters of sand trapped inside the core, and we need to do is we collect the sample, and usually uh, the, the it’s usually only four types of material that we only foresee you know, usually it’s either clay, silt, no three type, clay, silt or sand. Of course we prefer sand, silt we not so prefer silt, because the… sand is the best element. So uhm, so when we, when we, when we hit on the clay, the penetration of the core will probably only one meters you know, you know, but when we hit on sand probably we can go up to five, four, four five meters, right or not, when the sand trap inside. When we collect the sand we collect in the form of one meters, what quality, two meters, what quality, three meters, what quality, four meters… the quality of the sand. Then of course when we retrieve the, the core, we will have to save that coordinates. Yeah, the position, you know. And we will travel in another nautical mile, and drop again, in the form of one nautical mile. Each, each, each drop is a nautical mile. So each drop we actually lock the coordinates. From there we lock the co-ordinates and also the sample of sand. So do you have a… when you do all these surveys do you go out with the chart so you can tell the sand is here, the clay is here? Correct, correct, at the end it’s very simple, it’s all GPS with the computer screen and the map. The co-ordinates is there. The co-ordinates is all mapped up, the position, we took the sand sample, the same time we have another Excel sheet, where the coordinate number one the uh quality of sand, dot dot dot… the coordinate number two, quality of sand, you know. So what is considered good sand or bad sand? Bad sand is either course or fine. Both are okay for landfill. Only the mixture, sometimes it’s only the mixture of silt and sand, which the main con is not so keen on the 
mixture of silt and sand, the mixture. Is silt difficult to use? Silt will… silt will not give firm foundation probably the… in, in, in the eye of the developer. Sand will eventually become compact. Yeah. So when, when, when you’re doing the surveys, when you’re going looking for the sand, is there a dragging ship that actually, is following you, or you are out there on your own? Oh out there only one vessel, only our boat, the vessel, just do the checking. To search the quality of sand. In instances when you’re doing the… the surveys, and actually you pulled out something that you didn’t expect? Well normally we, this is the simple sand search, this is the simple survey for sand search, then once you have the quality of sand per nautical mile, what we do is, the main con will request that we are happy with the survey, the amount of quantity of sand is recorded, but to play safe can you do another survey, sometimes we call it the magnetic survey you know, we call it a scan you know, different instruments, probably about a metre above the seabed, then we go through a scan on any magnetic object on the surface of the seabed. Sometimes, usually this type of sea area, we don’t see much of unusual thing like chair or table, you don’t see that you know, you know. But usually we check is uh magnetic parts ah, usually like, the old, old, World War Two, like can be uh… cannon, can be a big cannon, or can be a mortar shell you know, or can be a bomb you know, you know, during, during those days, so what we did is we doing a scan, then we detect the magnetic spot, you know, then we give them the information again, give them the co-ordinates of the magnetic spot, can be fifty, example ah, and they request that can you check what is it. So what we did is we, we, we don’t use the big boat anymore, we use the smaller boat. How big is the big boat? Oh the big boat is about a hundred footer for the sand survey, because the… we, you need to live on board you see. We need the number of crew, we need the captain to be on board, we need the technician, we need the survey team to do the drop core work you know – oh that’s really a long time – Then we have divers, usually it’s all divers, then its easier, where that, should there be anything, where the drop core stuck on the clay and cannot pull up, the divers will go down and settle the problem you know. How often does that happen? Well it do happen, but of course when it happen but we need to have some standby core, you know, and uh usually when they come up it’s on the clay, the drop core will bend, when they pull it will bend, in a way we have to replace them in a short period of time. These commercial divers are efficient, they can do welding job on the boat, on the vessel, they can do any repairs on the vessel at any time. So back to the magnetic survey, we will have to check the what actually the magnetic equipment or material it is, then we will take a picture, right or not, then we will remove it, if possible, yeah, and we will remove it and dump it in the dumping ground at the venue. Is there a designated dumping ground? What is that actually? Well there is you know, in Langsa area, or Batam area, there is always on the map sometime they indicate dumping area, so you can actually dump the thing there. So can you can pretty much dump anything you want? Correct. So is there a lot of things in the dumping area now? Well I have no idea. Because uh, the, normally we just drop the thing and just go off. Say you find like say, a bomb, how do you move it? Do you attach it, and then drag it? We will not bring it onto the boat. We will slowly move it to the dumping ground. How do you slowly move it? Well we will pull it just above the just on the water’s surface and slowly move it along the boat, just towing along. That looks… Sounds very laborious actually, for every single object. So there’s risk factors involved lah. So is there anything happened? No lah, so far, I think that is how most of the people do it. They will not bring the bomb to, to, to the land right. Let’s say you have twenty bomb, every day you bring a bomb to the land ah, it’s also a big headache to the land authority. So the dumping ground is not in Singapore.
No, no, no. The… at the venue lah, you know. It’s in Langsa? It’s at the venue lah, you know. So where’s the venue? It depending on where the location is. Is it on the MPA chart? It’s called dumping ground? No. Because we cannot bring the item back to Singapore. So therefore we will dump it on the dumping ground, and we just leave it there, and we just go off. How often do you find such ordinances? It is very common, especially around this area you know. I got this chart thing, maybe you can like… This is uh… Quite useful…. (long pause) Okay basically is uh, we have to uh, we have to, we don’t bring back such items. We saw it down there, we have to retrieve it, we have to, we have to dispose it at the dumping ground. What items? The item can be the old machine guns with the rounds still with it, sometimes it could be mortar shells, sometimes it could be old engines. But when we did is we are more concerned about the bomb only, because when they want to suck the sand, what worries them is that the bomb may be suck together with the sand, and sometimes it could actually, when it suck the bomb actually exploded in the suction pipe, you know, so it could cause them a delay in their operation. So has that actually happened? Yeah. It happened before? Yeah, so sometimes it stuck in the suction, the mouth, it could damage the equipment at the same time disrupt the operation. So therefore our main concern is to remove the explosive, the bomb, to the dumping ground, so that the operation for the suction of the sands will be, will not be affected lah you know. Yeap. So the magnetic survey is conducted on the smaller vessel? Smaller vessel, yeah. And you are on the ship also? No, I don’t, when they do, when they do the magnetic search I don’t have to be involved because my job was more on the computer screen where I do, do the…uh mapping of the sand area. The quality of sand… and on the recording of the sensors. Yeah, not on the practical part, you know. Do you still have those charts of the sand charts with it? No, it’s over about I think twenty years ago I think. Yeah. You didn’t keep any of that? It would be interesting to see how you, how you, you map it out actually. It’s quite simple, I’m sure you understand, of the software of the GPS right. It’s just like the sight, the GPS is in front of you, even the normal GPS you have the vessel there right. What we did is uh very simple, where we will plot lines on the GPS. So what I do is just like uh it’s just like lines, square of lines lah, you know, - it’s a grid – Grid right, you call it, so what we do is uh each nautical mile is one box lah you know, so when we do the survey, when we drop the core, it will be according, because the vessel you’ll be able to see on the GPS what, so when we move it according to the line, we call it way line move according to the way line of the GPS, or the DGPS, then you drop the core, then I have to enter the spot of the co-ordinates, then from there when you retrieve, yeah, then the, there will be a number for that, you know like, A1, you know then of course the bottle there will be a sample below where it will be written in the tens, where A1, what co-ordinates, then the sample, A2, which co-ordinates, you know. That’s how we work, you know. So you know, you did some reclamation for, for some islands in the Southern Islands and Pasir Panjang, do you know where those sand came from actually? Well we, we, we roughly know, where the, which area but of course we did not monitor the, the exact location of the sand lah you know. Yeah. 
(pause) Were there like anything interesting when you were doing those surveys actually? Yeah because right now the, the, the interesting part is actually the, the, the work involved which is not many people know that you know in, in, in a sand search, or landfill project required, uh, such technology where you have to look for sand, you have to check the quality and quantity of sand, you know, the interesting thing is actually the process, how we carry out. The, the uh, after the landfill project then we also use it for, for project where we, we went to retrieve the Silk Air that crash in Palembang, where is similarly also the same process, where we do need instrument that’s to suck up the plane, we need the dredger to go there, so we also map up the same thing, map up the co-ordinates, the area, and uh, and uh we also retrieve accordingly, uh you know, according to the map, where also the dredger also use the same method, when the, when the scoop goes down to retrieve the plane, where they pull up, you know, and they throw the debris onto the barge, you know, where there’s a netting on top, so what they do is they use high pressure, water from the sea, they shoot onto the debris, the silt will settle down onto the barges, the remains will be stuck on the netting, you know, then the the co-ordinates is entered, safe, so what I do is when I put the instruments onto the barges, on the dredger, the driver will do the same thing, they bring down the scoop, they press the button, at the end of it, the survey is completed, the black box is up, you know, then we have to bring out this, what you call that, the what we have dredged, then from there how thorough the dredging process, then we send it to DSA or MPA or and the main con lah, yeah. Same process lah, except it’s not uh drop core, but it’s dredging you see, yeah. (long pause) The first time that when, uh, the first few times that we spoke to you. You said that, uh, uh, when you were doing the surveys, you know sometimes you would get, uh, get uh apprehended, by the Indonesians. Was an incident actually. Maybe you can tell us about you know how that happened and you know what happened... I think it’s interesting because there’s a human element. Yeah but sometimes it’s very sensitive you see because they… Yeah why is it so gray, you know, this area? We did, uh, we did one in Karimun, not Karimun, in Kukup. Then we have a navy officer come on board to check for our permit. We actually have the permit to do the dredging work but eventually he, but eventually they left the vessel. The sad thing is when they left the vessel, uh, we found a lot of things missing, you know, yeah. So that is something, that is something, a lot of things that is missing from the vessel. Because we were asked to, you know, we were asked to go to the forecaster. Forecaster is the fore part of the bough where we have to kneel down with our hands on our heads. So, so, everybody had to go to the fore part of the vessel then the uh the navy searched the whole ship lah. So at the end but we lose a bit of money. That happened with navy? Yeah. Indonesian? No no no, Malaysian. Malaysian. Okay. I hope this one you can cut lah you know. This one, sometimes can be very political you know. So how? Indonesia we also got arrested. We were arrested for a month uh in, uh in, uh Southeast, East, uh, Western Sumatra. Then uh. But the three months was quite okay lah you know. Yeah. What happened in Sumatra? Which year was this? Umm in the 90s, yeah. Yeah. What happened is that they went to do the survey but I think uh this one is uh, very political things ah. I think we don’t have a permit or something like that. Or the main con there did not arrange properly or something like that. Yeah. Then we were arrested lah. So you were out there for how long already when this happened? A month? We were out there for nearly a month then we was arrested then we live there another month you know waiting for permit, waiting for approval, to continue the project. Were you held on the boat? Say again? Were you held on the boat itself...? Well we were arrested uh usually um how a vessel arrested is… I tell the scenario is 
like when navy, uh, vessel approach the vessel then find that it is suspicious you know then what they do is, uh, they ask, uh, they ask the suspicious vessel to follow them to the naval base uh. Yeah, normally that is how it works lah. Then once you are at the naval base, um, then they will check the, um, the permit you know yeah and so on lah, yeah. So, um, so when you were so called apprehended did you have to stay on the ship for 3 months? Not actually we ah don’t have to because we are not criminal. We actually ah trying to do a job right or not and uh sometimes is uh sometimes it’s only based on permit issue lah. So ah the only thing that uh only thing is our passport is compounded lah you know we cannot we cannot leave the country but we are free to move around lah. So what did you do for the 3 months? (laughs) Yeah. I.,. yeah. Sometimes ah what I did is ah, we visited uh quite a number uh inserting (sic) interesting places in Indonesia lah. During the time I remember uh, um it was uh… Maybe you can tell us from the beginning I mean it’s very interesting not so much the arrest you know those issues. What I find most interesting is you were there doing a job then you know you, uh, you got nothing to do. Then what did you do? Oh. Well you know we have to, uh, wait for the, um, permit the application to be approved right probably that we have to settle some fine that they impose right but during that period we didn’t know how long it would take you know but tentatively during that time that they will tell us that, eh probably it will take about two weeks why not you just go and relax, you know. So what I did was go to, uh, Jakarta during that time that, uh, was uh, Indonesia they having the SEA Game in Jakarta so I went to the Game Village visit my friend you know, yeah, for a day or two, then, uh, at the same time, uh, very familiar with Jakarta cause you know been more than a couple of weeks there so, uh, so I brought some of the Singaporean friends that were in Jakarta to, uh, to visit, uh, to bring them around Jakarta. So you didn’t stay on the island lah? No it’s actually not the island is, uh... is in Java itself. Sumatra ya. No Java Java. So when they kinda forced you to take over the ship and bring over to the naval base is actually very far from where they… Uh, we were, we are not far from the naval base ah. It’s in Aceh is it? No. We were in Aceh but, uh, but we, uh did not do a survey in Aceh. So you’re not prisoners per se you know…? Say again? You’re not prisoners but you go overseas…? Yeah because, uh, they find that you need permit, you know, you cannot carry on the project you know. Yeah So is this very common this thing happening with them checking your permit then boat being seized? How many times did that happen actually? Well they sometimes ah you know sometimes we never know what actually is required sometimes you actually have a permit but you infringe other authorities you know right? So then sometimes they will say that you need another permit this is not enough you know so, uh, so we have to comply with the rule then probably pay the fine you know then just, uh, continue with the job lah. Yeah. Mm. Mm. (long pause) So did you have uh...? Most of the people on the boat were they Japanese or Singaporeans? For that project, uh, let me see... Yeah there is a mixture ya. Ya. Did you, uh, form lasting friendships with these people on the ship like because one month on the ship is quite a long time. Yeah yeah. So we have a mixture of Japanese and, uh... Singaporean yeah. And how many such ships were there, I mean in the seas. Was it just your ship? Our ship.Yeah our ship because this is quite, um, this is quite, uh, you know the sand search project, uh, there are not companies that are doing that so, so we are the ones doing sand search for the landfill in that area lah yeah. So who has the data for the sand surveys that you have done? What normally we uh… Cause it’s an interesting survey that…
sand we, we map out the area. Then after they will record the information of the sand and the quality is exactly the same as what we have collected so normally after that normally we just dispose the sand lah. They will suck the sand. They will deliver to the site that’s all only. How much sand did they take from the site? Does it change the oceanography of the area? I don’t think so because sand is natural right. It will not affect the geographical, you, know area of that island yeah. But what about the sand from Singapore’s waters? Do you survey sand from around here as well? What they... you, as you know the um, those sand in Singapore are not natural sand you know, yeah. And if, if... if I’m not wrong you can look around and in Singapore is usually mud based, ah silt based right, and uh once you have uh sand. You will be able to see crystal clear water right? Therefore you hardly able to see you look out East Coast Park you will hardly able to see crystal clear water because uh underneath are usually silt ya. And what causes the silt is it because of...? The silt is uh as I say is natural you know. You cannot uh. Is just like when there is sand usually uh, um. The, the, the, the island there is uh the quality of the land is a bit harder, yeah, yeah you look like uh you can see Maldive you don’t see silt uh they are, they are tall. They are volcanic underwater yeah, yeah, so... so it’s natural you know. In Singapore we are surrounded by water that is the underwater, the underwater materials are silt yeah. And you can never convert it to sand you know, yeah. (pause) In Singapore when they did the land reclamation project there were a lot of shores right with like sea grass? And they dumped the sand on top of it. And I guess it kind of like affected the sea grass. But the uh, sometimes sea grass to boaters are uh, are uh not favorable on sea grass because they will clog their filters yeah. So many a time that they try to get rid of the sea grass. Especially on Sentosa Cove there’s a lot inside they are thinking of ways to, to get rid of it lah. Because it actually not so good for the corals because it take away the oxygen you know, take away nutrients and oxygen yeah. Ok. Anymore? I think the, the uh... I think the bomb anything regarding with bomb ah… Ok. Ok. One more question. Uh try not to complicate the issue lah yeah. (laughs) I think bomb is just, ah, something from the post-colonial period I mean uh during the colonial period I mean not post-colonial is, is, is uh something that the British kind of left. I mean we found articles like uh in the 70s is it. There was a kid that was on the beach. Was it 70s? 90s I think. There was a bomb on the beach because of the land reclamation then the kid actually got killed because the bomb exploded. So that kind of thing. I think they after that they are aware of the danger of the bomb uh the transport over by the barges then onto the landfill island, yeah. So therefore we require to remove, remove it before the operation start you know. Then uh one thing I remembered from my earlier conversations with you, you were telling me that, that uh when you were doing the survey there would be rival companies. Like rival companies following you trying to like leech on your surveys actually. So yeah. Actually there are some other companies also doing but they are doing ship method you know. Yeah. Especially the Hyundai. The ship method rather than the barges to transport over lah. So what will happen actually? I think that’s quite interesting actually that rival companies will actually.. So sometimes it’s, it’s not nice when we are looking for the sand and we know that the quantity and quality of sand of that area but he’s also looking for sand. And he’s, the method, he’s using is randomly he don’t know where the sand is you know. Yeah. So in a way that is, uh, that is just like you know not very happy with the vessel around. With using different method. That we are using uh, the method that is truly we find the sand and the, the, the amount of sand the quality of sand you know and we able to map out the area of sand but for them it’s just randomly just put the suction pipe right at the bottom and just randomly you know sucks it in but sometimes it could be, it could be I don’t know they probably bring in the silt into their vessel right or not because they didn’t know what is the quality of the sand because they do the suck… the sucking of the sand. So there are pros and cons you know uh. Yeah so what happens when Indonesia the banned the sale of sand I think was it in the 90s right?
No 2007. I think uh the part where they bar the sand is actually uh we have completed quite a lot of landfill project where we finish the, the refinery island… we finish the container wharf in Pasar Panjang… and uh, and even in uh Tuas area you know. The only part I think is affected uh, is, uh, is actually the reclamation of Pulau Tekong only where is sensitive issue because the neighbors ah. Of collecting the sand from neighbor and uh fill up the island you know in Pulau Tekong yeah. So then after that all sands, uh, there is a restriction on sand from nearby island to Singapore, even from Malaysia to Singapore, and uh also Indonesia to Singapore. (pause) So this Hyundai ship was it following your survey ship or...? Now I don’t think so... cause our survey is. Probably they know that we are doing survey but they are, uh they are not in the area that we are doing ah. So how much was the cost of sand during that time? Well I have no idea the yeah. Mm. Uh (long pause). Is there anything you might want to add? Mm. (Pause) Well, is good to understand how the process work lah you know it’s actually ah something that not many people understand how the landfill the project how it works you know. And you know. It’ll be good to let the young the new generation to understand uh, how this thing, this technology, how this process is carry out you know. Yeah. So if you walk somewhere say if we bring you to right now Sentosa Cove, which is a kind of reclaimed land also, you know if we bring you to say Pasir Panjang. You know most countries right when they talk about land right there’s some uh, connection to the land you know… land is something you’re narrative from. The idea of nation you know is very connected to land. But I think in Singapore, it’s quite unreal in the sense that reclamation land is not something we inherit but something that we build... actually not passed down but something that we make. So let’s say when we go to a place that you were involved in in the process of finding the sand. How does that sand relate to you? Do you feel a sense of connection to it? Well they, they, they… Of course we have the feel that oh there is always there’s a need to have more lands yeah. The, of course the, when area are already constrained you know, and the authority want to develop more, create more space, of course it’s a feeling is great you know. The great can be expand, can be created into uh you know leisure or for port usage or for industrial purpose you know, so sometimes you feel like... oh it’s actually, it’s actually a good idea using uh sea sand which is actually uh, if, if did not use is a waste and you, you, you… use the sea sand to expand and enlarge the island so that you can have more space more can, can, can uh use this for proper use you find that oh that should be the way to do you know and uh in, in, in the 60s or 50s during those days they don’t use this method you know. They use uh, they use highland the soil from highland then they will transport by truck to refill the land you know and uh those actually you economically it’s not wise because you need a lot of trucks you need a lot of manpower you need a lot of equipment you know and each time how much can a truck carry you know. So sandfill is so simple in a way that you only need uh, to suck the sand into the barges you know, you don’t need to worry anything. Once the sands go into the barges the sand bin, uh heavier medium will sink down water will float up you know. Once the barges are full the water will spill over the sand is delivered to Singapore in one tugboat, and uh you know hundred filter barges all the way to the side you know so it’s cheaper economical you know then also you uh island is, is getting bigger because of the more land space especially for Singapore it’s a small island which is I find that is uh good to continue to, to enlarge the island because Singapore being so small lah you know. (pause) Thanks. Thanks a lot. Okay? But if you need the real, uh, the real technology of the work probably I can help you to find uh... where are the drop core. Whether the company is still keeping it or not then from there uh, you can take a picture of it. How it works. How it suspends on the vessel. How it drop. Ah. Then actually, ah, you can actually have a full story about it. Do you have film footage of the thing being drop? Well it’s already have been about 20 years. Or photographs? I don’t know the company uh still kept it or not… You have any personal relics from your days… like photographs? Maybe some… No no, we don’t ah, I don’t keep them cause… No mementos, nothing? (laughs)
Picture of you and your friends from the survey on the ship…? No no, I can find lah but it has been 20 years. Yeah. I think it will be great if you could could uh have a image of uh.. you and your uh.. on the ship actually. Cause now you’re telling me and I can’t imagine… So if you can have a storyline on it, it will be a good documentary film, then if you can have the old Pasir Panjang where the sand was filling in and if you still have it. Then plus the barges with the sand coming over you know yeah. (pause) Thanks. Thank you. Okay?

Foo Say Juan worked as a sand surveyor in the 1990s. He is a sailing coach and was Marina Manager at The Republic of Singapore Yacht Club, an institution that traces its tenets back to the 19th century and is considered to be one of the oldest of its kind in Southeast Asia.

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